Comment by 🐙 norayr
Re: "Linux geminauts, what display server protocol do you use?"
x11 + windowmaker.
firstly, i don't like such dramatic changes. i want to run my x11 wm.
secondly, i like that x is a protocol, and you can draw by writing to the socket (most distros today configure x to disable tcp socket and enable unix domain socket)
so one may issue commands to draw line, rectangle, some graphical primitives. x comes with some demo programs that use just those.
therefore, i can ssh to machine, and draw remote program on my screen, and the graphical primitives in the protocol can be used.
or if i enable tcp socket, i can write DISPLAY=other_ip:0 someprogram and it'll draw the program that runs locally on other computer's screen.
in case of wayland the bitmaps are transferred, like vnc does. i dont think it is beautiful, good design. the argument is that today's gtk and qt widgets are too complex with shades and gradients and 3d emulation, that they need to be transferred by bitmaps anyway.
well i dont like both, i use some tk programs, and i experiment with modula-3 widgetset called trestle.
eventually, i don't like big enterprises pushing their agenda, and though many complain that linux distros are too diverse, for me it is a positive thing. i understand those companies benefit from same software stack, especially those who control that stack.
i don't like big forces imposing their agenda. sometimes we don't notice, sometimes we do.
and i don't understnd that excitement about 'killing x' that let's say lunduke as journalist shows.
now about him: since childhood i noticed that instead of arguing by arguments, many attack the person behind the arguments. i think in speech it is called, sort of, switching to personas, or peronalities?
but it looks like when the debate is not about the arguments, not about the matter, it is a way to avoid the debate. and it is not beautiful.
i don't follow all mailing lists in the world and i haven't seen where did lunduke expressed something that portrays him as nazi, but even if so, that should not cast a shadow on what we like to use. and that doesn't automatically discredit all what he says.
that also doesn't make us nazi supporters if we use x11.
nazis promoted physical activities. adidas was created for this. should we not excersise, because that is what they were promoting?
also i learned about existence of lunduke just recently, my position on x was formed long ago.
i don't like killing programs, i like reviving programs that don't anymore compile, that are forgotten. that is one of my hobbies.
so i can't share the excitement about 'killing x'.
one last thing.
people claim some things are technically better like it is an objective truth. that is said about rust. well rust was a big hope and big disappointment to me.
to me it is not technically better if i can't build it on a machine with 4gb of ram.
yes, i forgot to add about software diversity: i don't perceive linux as a standard platform. and i don't think any 'standard platform' is good.
i like extensible and modular systems.
i use gentoo and perceive my os as at arbitrary mix of many different softwares compiled in the way i decided. 'linux' is a collection of recipies, and some people may use pidgin with otr
though majority uses maybe dino with omemo.
existence of dino and omemo does not discredit otr.
i build pidgin(and everything) without gstreamer - i don't like unnecessary deps and i don't think gsreamer is a particularly beautiful tech. and i don't use audio/video calls with it.
i mean it is not written in stone what we should use.
there's a kernel, and even it is to some extent modular. i have configs for my devices, and add modules like v4l2loopback for example.
i don't use pulse but i use jack. i never understood why i need to use pulse and gentoo allowed me not to use it. i built everything without it. jack on the other hand i needed for audio work. i have read recommendations to not do such work with pulse.
i mean, there's different software, we don't need to follow what are some template solutions.
maybe one day i build the system where only framebuffer is used. i have a cool pascal framework that draws also in framebuffer, there's everything, even color picker.
and i have an oberon system that is able to draw itself in x and in framebuffer. i totally see how can i use those solutions on some device.
and politically, every choice is a vote. do i care about redhat or intel much to help them with their agenda? i think the opposite. if i feel there's an agenda, more reasons to not follow it.
at some point, as a kid in ussr's soviet armenia, i realized that the state shapes whatever it wants out of me.
it was very successful in what it wanted to achieve. at some point i realized i am what it wanted me to become.
and that was a very painful realization.
since that i question what am i, and why and how i do choices. the realization i described keeps me away from whatever i feel is being pushed by big forces.
or if i enable tcp socket, i can write DISPLAY=other_ip:0 someprogram and it'll draw the program that runs locally on other computer's screen.
in a way, did we really need html/http ?
accesing a data was via ftp.
and instead of accessing saas platform, that is someone else's program that needs to be divided in to frontend and backend, one could just draw remote program on their screen.
Feb 01 · 3 months ago
Poll Results
1. X11
███████████████▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁ 61%
2. Wayland
█████████▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁ 36%
3. Other (please specify)
▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁ 2%
4. None (terminal only)
▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁ 2%
61 votes were cast.
21 Later Comments ↓
☕️ tenno-seremel · Feb 01 at 10:40:
I use X11 because Debian 13 with KDE Wayland is superslow on my nvidia GPU (GeForce GTX 1660 Ti). I might choose something different when I’ll upgrade, but with current prices I have no idea when that will be.
An interesting survey. I love reading about topics I don't know about.
I use Wayland on Fedora 43 Workstation. It works for me and it's what I learned to use many years ago. However, I don't like the idea of killing x11: the health of Linux comes from its diversity and should be preserved.
👻 darkghost · Feb 01 at 12:08:
x11 has fun features. Did you know you can run x11 programs from an ssh session? ssh -X username and yes I've done this with things as bloated as Firefox. It's a tad slow but totally possible at least as of the last time I tried it. There isn't yet a Wayland equivalent I'm aware of.
☯️ leoperbo · Feb 01 at 16:07:
Voted Wayland cause it has been my way to go the last year on my main laptop. But I still use X11 on other machines, like this iMac from 2011, where I'm writing right now (Elive Linux).
The X11 client/server separation --although I am always confused about who the client is -- is an amazing feature. You can actually run thr UI on a different machine.
It is old and many features are obsolete. We could just ignore or remove them instead of forcing a whole new obsolete and inferior system inspired by a vintage Windows OLE. You know, cutting edge Object Oriented marshalling system with XML and a few 2012 innovations.
I use a bit of both. I run Sway (wlroots) on my main laptop, while my old Acer uses LXQt (Xorg). Meanwhile, my Raspberry Pi will soon be running E6 (Xenocara).
My ThinkPad T400 currently runs Xfce (Xorg), but I plan to try Xfwl as soon as it's available on Salix (a Slackware-based distro that happens to be available on gemini).
My phone and tablet, of course, use SurfaceFlinger; but that's neither here nor there.
I have also been considering giving XLibre a try, just to see what the craic is.
X11 and i3. I still have software where wayland has issues (+ bugs in wayland compositors). Biggest problem for me last year was hiDPI on my laptop with X11 (but wayland has complementary problems). What really sucks the patience out of me in both X11 and Wayland is that both can do hiDPI w/ multiple screens (in different ways) but the UX to set it up is terrible.
👻 darkghost · Feb 03 at 12:26:
+1 on hiDPI issues. KDE on x11 has handled it the most gracefully for me.
instead of forcing a whole new obsolete and inferior system inspired by a vintage Windows OLE.
@stack, can you tell more about it? i also have heard wayland has design similarities to windows but never really understood.
also we have framebuffer and kms, why not draw on them if xorg is not desirable.
I am hardly an authority, but I think at the core there is the desire to integrate tighter with GPUs and the kernel and facilitate 'compositing', whatever that may be. When I ask, the only response I get is "you know, transparent terminal windows and rounded corners and such". But frankly I don't really care and will use X11 for as long as Lunduke is alive to plug it. Or I'll probably drop dead first.
👻 darkghost · Feb 04 at 10:01:
I've had rounded corners and transparent terminals since 2005 on X11. Other claims are better performance by eliminating the X server, but real world tests still don't prove that out so far. Another is reduced attack surface, but swapping old code for new isn't always more secure. Another claim is that there is a lot of built in stuff, like multimonitor and touch that require extensions on X11. Meanwhile you can't do remote desktop on Wayland but don't worry that's coming soon as an extension. One perhaps nice feature of wayland is frame perfect synchronization. If you've ever used the X Intel driver on modernish hardware, watching videos is a choice of crappy frame rate or crazy video tearing.
☯️ leoperbo · Feb 04 at 15:26:
@darkghost: Meanwhile you can't do remote desktop on Wayland but don't worry that's coming soon as an extension.
I can do remote desktop on Wayland, no extension install required, and multimonitor support is better than X11 nowadays (my use cases). I was a Wayland detractor when I used Ubuntu derivatives, since one year ago, when I switched to Fedora, their implementation worked flawlessly, don't know if is a distro or a time issue.
Evidence of I was a Wayland detractor xD:
— Meme about Wayland shared on my gemlog
X11 + i3, I've try kde plasma with wayland but it is slow on my machine (ThinkCentre M72e).
🛞 MaAkThRsYoOySrHtKaAm · Feb 09 at 11:07:
x11 is nice. On an old laptopI can run just six processes: login, bash, startx, xinit, Xorg, openbox. That's enough for a very lightweight desktop environment. From there I can launch Steam with max resources available. Best to get better hardware though. Running over ssh is great for something like a pi.
i wote above, but i want to stress again, not only via x ssh forwarding.
i can draw a window on other computer's screen by using DISPLAY=other_computer_ip:0.
so someone may use gimp that runs on my computer but draws on theirs.
i am currently using X11 on void linux with the i3 window manager
🐧 the_mantelman · Feb 24 at 01:14:
Both Wayland and X11, depending on my mood
by the way, probono, the author of appimage and maker of a freebsd based os with macos like interface, published
@norayr, reading that was so weird. It was like I'd written that.
But better researched.
I use X11 still, mainly because I just encounter less jank on it.
I concur with other commenters that the fact X11 was designed for networked use is better. It's cool to be able to run an app externally and just have it integrate directly with the host environment.
Original Post
Linux geminauts, what display server protocol do you use? — i was curious earlier today so i figured i'd ask