[Discussion] Why isn't there a horizontal rule?

Hi!

I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
docs) when a line started with three hyphens. But on the last
paragraph I just realize I had to check the mailing list archive
before, and it turns out it had been already proposed, and not only
that, but I can't find a counter argument:

=> gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/000375.gmi

I'm wondering now: why wasn't it accepted? Was it just forgotten?

Thanks for your time!
---
Draco Metallium

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, at 8:58 PM, Draco Metallium(Rodrigo S. Cañibano) wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
> docs) when a line started with three hyphens. But on the last
> paragraph I just realize I had to check the mailing list archive
> before, and it turns out it had been already proposed, and not only
> that, but I can't find a counter argument:

There's nothing to stop you from using three hyphens on a line to suggest 
a horizontal rule/thematic break. It's just not in the Gemini spec so 
whether or not a client supports it depends entirely on the client's 
developer. Likewise with asterisks for Markdown-style italics and bold, 
but a line that begins with an asterisk will still be rendered as an item 
in an unordered list even if there's a terminating asterisk in that line, 
because using * for unordered lists /is/ in the spec.

-- 
Matthew Graybosch
https://starbreaker.org
"The lies you tell yourself are the lies that define you."
#include <disclaimer.h>

Heading aren't sufficient to make thematic break?

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Thursday, September 23rd, 2021 at 02:58, Draco Metallium <draco.kun@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
>
> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
>
> docs) when a line started with three hyphens. But on the last
>
> paragraph I just realize I had to check the mailing list archive
>
> before, and it turns out it had been already proposed, and not only
>
> that, but I can't find a counter argument:
>
> => gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/000375.gmi
>
> I'm wondering now: why wasn't it accepted? Was it just forgotten?
>
> Thanks for your time!
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
>
> Draco Metallium

Draco Metallium(Rodrigo S. Cañibano) <draco.kun@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi!
>
> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
> docs) when a line started with three hyphens. But on the last
> paragraph I just realize I had to check the mailing list archive
> before, and it turns out it had been already proposed, and not only
> that, but I can't find a counter argument:
>
> => gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/000375.gmi
>
> I'm wondering now: why wasn't it accepted? Was it just forgotten?
>
> Thanks for your time!
> ---
> Draco Metallium


I can agree that having a horizontal rule would be nice.  On the
geminispace there are pages that uses either

  ----

or

  ```
  ---
  ```

which I personally dislike.

Some time ago I experimented with this a little.  The
proposal/break-page branch of telescope has some code which renders ^L
(form feed, used to separate "pages") with a nice separator.  (I went
with ^L to avoid false positive with lines starting with `---' or
similar)

But then I left that branch rotting.  I guess that part of the reason
something like this wasn't included before is because of the saying
"perfection is when you can't remove anything" (or something similar,
but the gist is that.)  Horizontal rule can be avoided by properly using
paragraphs and headings in most cases.

Cheers,

Omar Polo

Hi Omar,

I recognised the use of the form feed ^L (ASCII 12) from Emacs. I was 
wondering about that too.

I checked the perspective from Xah Lee, who has evaluated its applicability:
=> http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/modernization_formfeed.html

He highlights technical limitations of form feed's reliance on ^L:
 ```
# Cygwin Bash
Cygwin Bash will generate this error if your shell script contains the 
Form Feed char that's not in comment.

bash: $'\f': command not found

# AutoHotkey
AutoHotkey scripting language generates compiler error if you have a 
uncommented Form Feed char in source code.

# PHP
PHP would print a warning about it: “Warning: Unexpected character in the 
input: '^L' (ASCII=12)”. This is in PHP bug database
 ```

His suggestion is an abbrev is to modernise the technique and encourage interprability
> So, a workaround i came up is to use the Unicode SECTION SIGN §, 
followed by the Unicode BOX DRAWINGS LIGHT HORIZONTAL (U+2500) ─.
 ``` elisp
("ss" "§ ────────── ────────── ────────── ────────── ──────────")

 ```
This approach could satisfy my desire for columns, given that the number 
of box drawings could be interpreted by a (friendly and amenable) client 
to split content into required columns
=> gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/007205.gmi

Incidentally, should a browser ever consider navigating sections Xah Lee 
cites the use of `[` and `]` characters but proposes `PageUp` and  `PageDown`.


====================
Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels

September 23, 2021 10:43 AM, "Omar Polo" <op@omarpolo.com> wrote:

> Draco Metallium(Rodrigo S. Cañibano) <draco.kun@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
>> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
>> docs) when a line started with three hyphens. But on the last
>> paragraph I just realize I had to check the mailing list archive
>> before, and it turns out it had been already proposed, and not only
>> that, but I can't find a counter argument:
>> 
>> => gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/000375.gmi
>> 
>> I'm wondering now: why wasn't it accepted? Was it just forgotten?
>> 
>> Thanks for your time!
>> ---
>> Draco Metallium
> 
> I can agree that having a horizontal rule would be nice. On the
> geminispace there are pages that uses either
> 
> ----
> 
> or
> 
> ```
> ---
> ```
> 
> which I personally dislike.
> 
> Some time ago I experimented with this a little. The
> proposal/break-page branch of telescope has some code which renders ^L
> (form feed, used to separate "pages") with a nice separator. (I went
> with ^L to avoid false positive with lines starting with `---' or
> similar)
> 
> But then I left that branch rotting. I guess that part of the reason
> something like this wasn't included before is because of the saying
> "perfection is when you can't remove anything" (or something similar,
> but the gist is that.) Horizontal rule can be avoided by properly using
> paragraphs and headings in most cases.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Omar Polo

Am 23.09.21 um 02:58 schrieb Draco Metallium(Rodrigo S. Cañibano):
> Hi!
> 
> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
> docs) when a line started with three hyphens. 

Personally I don't feel the need for it, except I use such like a 
construct to seperate my footer from the text:

——

back

I use the longer Unicode dashes for that. My idea about this topic is: If 
it is not needed in written books, why should it be needed in written 
online texts. But I was wrong, sometimes a kind of seperator is used in 
literature, like e.g.:

* * *

Ciao
Martin

-- EN: gemini://blog.datapulp.de DE:gemini://datenbrei.de

Am 23.09.21 um 02:58 schrieb Draco Metallium(Rodrigo S. Cañibano):
> I was going to send a long and passionate defence for the inclusion of
> the horizontal rule (or "The Thematic Break" according to mozilla web
> docs) when a line started with three hyphens
I had another idea: One could use the Unicode »Three-Em-Dash« or German 
»Dreigeviertstrich« as some small horizontal ruler:

⸻ (this is a three characters long dash, maybe not in monospace fonts)


You may input Unicode characters on Linux like this:

<Ctrl>+<Shift>+u, then release, then the code 2e3b, then press <Space> or <Enter>.

Ciao
Martin

On Fri Sep 24, 2021 at 9:17 AM BST, devel@datenbrei.de wrote:
>
> sometimes a kind of seperator is used in literature, like e.g.:
>
> * * *

	⁂

This is called an [asterism][1], a type of "dinkus" or thematic break.
There are many other forms of 'decoration' or section signifiers:

- fleuron  ❦  ❧  ☙
- interpuncts  ···
- section sign  §
- various other Unicode characters...

Long form writing sometimes necesitates thematic breaks where headings
don't quite fit. I'd personally love two see proper ASCII gemtext markup
for thematic breaks. Something like:

	/^---$/

The appearance of thematic breaks on a client (TUI/GUI) could be set to
anything, like one of the aforementioned signifiers, a
plain/double/wavy/dashed line, or even a custom image.

I'd love to see such personalisation.


  [1]: gemini://vault.transjovian.org/full/en/Asterism%20(typography)