Comment by 😎 bababooey
Re: "What could a protocol-native cult hit look like?"
@stack I'm not going to explain why starting a conversation with "Why in the world are you harping for the masses to come here and turn it into a turd" lowers the quality of the discussion, or why consistently behaving similarly in other threads by spamming, soapboxing and using terms like "idiots", "douches" and "masses of asses" is obnoxious. Enough already.
2025-05-22 · 1 year ago
36 Later Comments ↓
😎 bababooey [OP/mod, baba booey] · 2025-05-22 at 02:13:
"Please do not kid yourselves -- Gemini is not immune to a corporate invasion. Tracking is possible via IP addresses and fingerpriting is entirely feasible."
No one is saying that it's impossible to somehow commercialize Gemini, but companies base their business on conversion optimization and ad profiling, both of which would be made significantly more challenging with a protocol that doesn't offer close to the same kinds of mechanisms that they currently rely on to do these things. Online commerce, paid digital services and ad profiling extends beyond fingerprinting, so I'm not sure that it would be a realistic threat to even a moderately-sized Gemini userbase.
🚀 stack · 2025-05-22 at 02:17:
May I remind you that pretty much all advertising is opt-in, with people volantarily turning their viewers to Google or whatever.
With certificates, tracking is built-in.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 02:23:
I also think it's incorrect to assume that bringing in more people also brings in companies and commercialization and other things one might deem negative, as if "the mainstream" are a bunch of people with a disease that will poison Gemini.
Like, no. Gemini belongs to everyone that wants to engage in this space, and *if* we have to protect this space from companies by excluding people, then Gemini wasn't designed very well to begin with.
🚀 stack · 2025-05-22 at 02:25:
OK, enjoy the mutual admiration society. Over and out.
😎 bababooey [OP/mod, baba booey] · 2025-05-22 at 02:34:
What I mean is that companies would get less refined ad profiles from Gemini given that Gemini doesn't have any mechanisms that would allow for rich tracking of user interactions. It's probably much more lucrative for a company to build detailed and refined ad data on users through the regular web than trying to get limited data from Gemini based on page visits. Of course a company could try to hijack the Gemini standard in order to try to turn it into a richer experience which in turn would allow for better tracking, but then that would raise the question of why Gemini users would keep using Gemini if it's just going to turn into another mainstream internet.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 02:36:
It's just frustrating seeing this exclusivist mindset, and it's really harming Gemini as a whole. A community that's like this is just an awful toxic community that nobody wants to be in.
But Gemini is **a protocol first and foremost.** It was made to improve upon Gopher while ensuring the negative things about the web are not brought over. And as a protocol, it is made to be used as a tool and to improve the lives of people, the lives of *everyone* .
People bringing in their own ideas and art *does not harm Gemini*. That's just a projection of people's insecurity and fears, similar fears that were in the Gopher community as well.
What the hell is the point of a file-transfer protocol that has no users, and thus no files?! Exclusivity is the exact opposite of the point of this protocol! A protocol that is so exclusive that it limits the amount of things you can do on the very protocol is a protocol that dies with no lasting impact on improving society or technology. It just doesn't make sense. It works against your own interests.
😎 bababooey [OP/mod, baba booey] · 2025-05-22 at 02:47:
I do think it's a valid point that increased popularity probably correlates with increased commercialization. I would imagine that as soon as Gemini becomes somewhat popular even if it's just within a niche, we're going to start seeing people trying to make money off of it.
However, I do think there's a pretty big difference between some amount of commercialization taking place and the idea that a big tech company would step in and implement sophisticated tracking across the entire Geminispace. I would assume that Gemini would have to reach an unexpectedly high level of popularity for the latter to take place.
💎 pista · 2025-05-22 at 02:49:
It’s not hard to think of how advertising in gemini could work. It just requires slightly different approach.
You need a CGI-BIN capable server. All document requests start a ping to the ad server with the IP and cert of the user (if presented). These are used to build a profile of location and interests.
The ad server responds with AI generated copy that gets inserted into the page. Or possibly you feed your document back up to the ad server and they stealthily rewrite parts to target the ad client.
You now have impressions and clicks. The more capsules with ads the stronger the profile.
It’s not as advanced as JS Web tracking, but it’s the same method for Web ads from 1995-2005.
🚀 stack · 2025-05-22 at 02:53:
@clseibold, before I go... I have no idea why you keep chastising me for gatekeeping or being inclusivist! I just like our community and it's a matter of preference and opinion. And I dislike the idea of mass adoption -- again, a personal preference. Time will tell what happens.
I am not dictating the direction of anything or protecting anything. I am simply questioning why OP wants mass adoption, which would greatly alter the landscape (experience suggests, not for the better). Because I am interested in other opinions even if I don't like them and I do not consider my opinion set in stone.
And I am doing it politely, and with a great amount of interferance and censorship from OP.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 02:56:
@bababooey Yes, while I fully agree, the problem I have is much bigger than just saying there will be increased commercialization.
The problem I have seen so often in the Gopher and Gemini communities is this significant disdain for others that one starts to stereotype others.
It's the result of being so obsessed with your own thoughts and self, and so detached from the real world, that you can't see reality and can't be bothered to look outward and find that while people might have different ideas on whether images or styling would be good to have, *almost everyone* hates ads and overcommercialization to some extent.
I will say, back in 2019 I frequently came across people in Gopherspace talking about how making things so tech-involved would prevent "the normals" from coming into Gopherspace and ruining everything. To me this has always reeked of prejudice and superiority - as if tech-savy people were less likely to poison the community. I'm going to be very honest, it has always made me cringe, especially when my personal experience has always been the opposite - tech-savy people are more capable of doing more damage.
Anyways, this is all that I really have to add in this conversation: Just don't disconnect yourself from reality. Most people are not trying to poison Gemini, and allowing more people in, while it might entice advertisers, does not necessarily mean that those regular people are going to ruin everything.
😎 bababooey [OP/mod, baba booey] · 2025-05-22 at 03:06:
I agree that it's unhelpful to look at these matters through a lens of tribalism. People come in all kinds of personality types, so I think that speaking of them in a derotagory way just because they happen to exist outside of the Geminispace isn't particularly constructive.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 03:10:
I do have to add one more thing, the fact that this conversation moved from "a cult hit" - some form of content/art that people like - automatically to one person saying "why are you bringing in this poison from the web that will ruin Gemini" is the perfect example of what I'm talking about.
I'm writing an MMO Game in Gemini. It doesn't contain ads or irl commercialization, it fits within the limitations of Gemini. It would be cool if it became a hit, because I'm making it for people to enjoy and have something to do in Gemini, something that's fun and has a social component to it.
I feel like it's the type of thing that fits in with your question. But if we go from that automatically to - I'm bringing web slop into Geminispace and it will poison everything - well, that really just doesn't make any sense to me. And it's a little discouraging, too, to put so much work into this game for people just to potentially criticize me in the future for ruining Gemini if my game ever becomes something that a lot of people like.
To me, there is a very big difference between making art liked by the mainstream, and making art to get money out of the mainstream, and I feel people very often confuse one for the other.
🚀 stack · 2025-05-22 at 03:23:
Actually, the topic is What could a protocol-native cult hit look like", in a long stream of topics trying to brainstorm an attraction in 'Mass Adoption" subject. My question was not unreasonable. If you want to tap my brain, I am entitled to know why. It can provide a context that could greatly improve or entirely change the results.
As for art, some do it for money, some to stroke their egos, and some because we really don't have a choice, criticism or praise being irrelevant. But that is not what this is about, is it?
🐝 undefined · 2025-05-22 at 04:55:
Kind of late to this, and not particularly focused, sorry about that. One thing that has frustrated me about the gemini community for a while (and it seems like you feel a bit of that as well) is an overall lack of energy. It seems like a lot of people treat this place as a retirement home rather than a place for experiments, which is what it should be, I feel. As far as what those experiments might be, here's a few thoughts.
Since there's not as many users here, you could do a lot more complicated server side logic, and it's not going to matter as much, because you don't have that many users to begin with. Or not having to spend as much time on ui as on the regular web or native gui programs.
I'm thinking mostly about games because that's what interests me, but it doesn't have to be ofc.
It'd be cool to have a place where users could submit procedural art, kinda like shadertoy. I've had a prototype of that idea that I showed like half a year ago on here, it'd be neat to turn that into a real thing.
👻 mediocregopher [...] · 2025-05-22 at 08:09:
One way to approach this question a bit more systematically would be to acknowledge that Gemini is not the first text-forward protocol to emerge on the internet. There was email, BBS, gopher, IRC, HTML for a time.... Even now there's markdown which is used heavily by techies. So it's not like Gemini being text-forward is a differentiating factor, historically.
The question then is: is it likely that a Gemini user is going to come up with a "killer app" for Gemini which would have been possible on any of these other mediums, but just no one thought of it? Or is it more likely that any "killer app" is going to be based on some functionality Gemini provides that these other mediums don't? I have to think the latter.
So what functionality does Gemini have that others don't which could be the basis of anything interesting? Imo it would have to be the client-side cert. Yes, _technically_ other mediums can use CSCs, but in practice if they do it's so far buried and unappealing that no average user would. If there's any discussion about where to look for a unique use-case that Gemini could gain ground in I would start there.
🐝 undefined · 2025-05-22 at 08:15:
@mediocregopher I've thought about that too, but what could you do with that that you couldn't do with cookies? They seem like exactly the same thing, just more explicit for the user. Not like you couldn't do that with cookies if you wanted to?
🐝 undefined · 2025-05-22 at 08:16:
Nah scratch that, not exactly the same but still
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 09:07:
@mediocregopher An app or piece of art doesn't have to be unique to become a cult hit, so I'm having trouble understanding your reasonings here.
Games were done on many of these other textual protocols, particularly BBS Door Games (which someone else mentioned previously). MUDs eventually become MMORPGs on the web, and MMO text-based games like Ogame, etc. Ogame became a hit even though before it there were hit MUDs. Runescape became a hit even though Ogame and MUDs were hits themselves. None of these were the first of their genres, and none of them innovated technologically (e.g., Ultima Online predates Runescape), but their uniqueness comes from the game in its entirety - the game mechanics, story, art, etc. - rather than its *technical innovations.*
And the same can be said for all the other forms of **artistic** expression. Books with the same premeses both become hits or cult classics, many using the same techniques in writing.
Even apps that repeat the same idea over again can still become popular in their own way. BBSs and Mailing Lists, terminal spreadsheets to graphical spreadsheets to web spreadsheets. They change platforms, throw in a couple of different functionalities or design changes, and that works just fine.
Because ultimately, it doesn't really matter if something is completely unique, only that it suits the needs of the people using it at the moment in time where that person was *introduced* to it. If I was introduced to Google Docs at a young age, I don't know anything about Word to even know that Google Docs was not unique. It just doesn't matter.
Innovative ideas might *help*, but they are not the major deciding factor. If we're going to be systematic here, then the entire crux of your argument - that uniqueness matters - must also be questioned. Historically, I would argue that it doesn't, at least not to the degree that you seem to be arguing for.
For art, part of the reason that non-unique art becomes popular is because you cannot assume that everyone has experienced the previous art that might be being "reused" or whatever. Just because Avatar has an overused plot doesn't mean I don't love Avatar's plot because of my own experience of watching something that I've never seen myself before. The plot may not have been new, but it was *new to me*. And that's really the key here.
And it's the only thing that matters, because the point of art is not necessarily uniqueness, it's the evocation of feelings and ideas. That's is the purpose of much good art.
David Guetta's I'm Blue didn't become popular because people like reused songs. It became popular because not everyone heard Blue by Eiffel! And because it evoked a feeling that people loved. And that's not a bad thing. *That's* art!
A person need only create really great art (that could be exclusive to Gemini) for it to become a *cult* hit, at the very least.
For example, Gemini is great at interactive fiction. If someone wrote a great interactive fiction in Gemini, it could become a cult hit. It *doesn't matter* that it can be ported to a different platform, only that the author *chose* Gemini to begin with!
And it's not like we're speaking of universal critically acclaimed hits here. We're talking about cult hits, so Astrobotany is already a cult hit in the Gemini community, lol.
😎 bababooey [OP/mod, baba booey] · 2025-05-22 at 10:15:
I think that one of the more direct ways of increasing Gemini's popularity could be to bring one or more popular authors or subject matter experts over and portraying Gemini as a walled garden for accessing their writing.
For example, I could see leaders in academic niches exclusively using Gemini to publish articles, given that Gemini would be a setting where they'd know that they'd be reaching people who are voraciously passionate about their field of work.
You can extrapolate on this and imagine all the ways in which Gemini being primarily text-based in combination with its technical limitations could bring a tangible value to people in a way that the mainstream internet couldn't.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-22 at 10:25:
I mean, yeah. Publication exclusivity is done in the publishing industry for a reason, because it works very very well, lol.
🚀 clarahd · 2025-05-22 at 12:08:
To me Lagrange, gemini KOReader plugin, and the proxies/portals I listed in the ereader sub were critical mass.
Now I can have a pleasant experience reading from the internet on a low power ereader's eink screen. The protocol is simple enough to be ported to dumbphones.
A community would likely have a different vibe as it goes from unix pioneers to ubuntu fanboys to reddit operators though. What would spare Gemini, other than perhaps the technical or obscurity obstacles it puts up. Or filtering out those that like youtube unpacking videos.
💎 pista · 2025-05-22 at 12:10:
@csleibold
It *doesn't matter* that it can be ported to a different platform, only that the author *chose* Gemini to begin with!
This is what I’ve been saying since I first got involved in Gemini. This space needs original things that only exist here or people have no reason to fire up a Gemini browser. And we need as many people with as many diverse interests as possible to create them.
Way too many people tried to fill up Gemini early on by porting over Web projects (generally in an inferior form).
That’s why this BBS is so great. It’s only here and it’s built for here. It gives us a reason to hop on Gemini every day.
🦀 Proton · 2025-05-22 at 20:15:
What keeps me visiting: lagrange\ What keeps me leaving: every capsule on here is a blog about the same 3 topics with 0 diversity and very insular inward looking mentality
🚀 hum0r · 2025-05-22 at 22:29:
Along with many of the comments about gated content (art/writing/games), I personally think specialized hardware would be a big boon to the gemini population. I personally imagine something like an e-reader with a physical keyboard - or another type of device created specifically to take advantage of the Gemini ecosystem. There are so many Cyberdecks that generate a lot of publicity online, and I think custom hardware could do the same for Gemini.
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-24 at 03:10:
@pista Sure! This is a great distinction to bring up: I'm not necessarily discounting unique *content* as one aspect that affects whether something becomes a hit, but I am discounting unique technological innovation. Very often we can find superior platforms or technological ideas don't succeed whereas the inferior ones do, and one reason for this is because of the content that you can find on that platform. And part of the content often includes art.
And yet, I think there's a very important difference between art that is entirely unique and the experience of the art being new to a particular audience. Art that feels new is oftentimes not unique. The perceptual originality of the experience of the art matters more than its original mechanics. I think this view is more consistent with real-world examples of art that become hits.
🐙 norayr · 2025-05-25 at 01:06:
of course nobody can or wishes to restrict adoption of gemini.
i think everyone in this thread basically agrees on most of things.
but there is misunderstanding about terms. what 'success' means can be very different.
and i guess many of us (me certainly) are not fans of the 'success' in startup or corporate app style.
we are not competing, we are not imposing, we just use the protocol and have fun.
however i do believe that gemini achieved success (though i dislike the word and its use in connection with gemini).
there are lots of people who use the protocol and have fun with it. if i had invented some protocol, i don't think it would lead to such adoption. gemini finds resonanse in some people's hearts.
and doesn't find in others' hearts.
i tried to show gemini to many: it has zero appeal to 99.999999% of people i shown it to.
they don't care and don't feel what i feel and how i relate to gemini.
that's fine. it's not for 'mainstream' user, as well as certain types of music are not for everyone's taste.
and it shouldn't be.
ploum has this article, called, i think, stop trying social networks succeed.
🐙 norayr · 2025-05-25 at 01:08:
— ploum.net/2023-07-06-stop-trying-to-make-social-networks-succeed.gmi
🚀 clseibold [🛂] · 2025-05-25 at 03:44:
All I would have to say is I don't like this use of the word mainstream, because I'm part of the mainstream and I use Gemini. Mainstream is often used as a way of lumping everyone together without distinguishing between the people. Gemini, right now, appeals mostly to tech people because it's tech-focused.
It also appeals to people who understand the text-focused vision, but not everybody understands the text-focused vision, or more likely, *it's particular* text-focused vision.
I've showed Gemini to other people as well, and many of them say that they don't understand the lack of things like images and styling. **That's not automatically them being "mainstream"**, and I find that to be very reductive, especially when most of these people I've showed it to were programmers.
The reality is most people like a mix of mainstream and niche things.
The thing people have a problem with in Gemini is that they don't understand the reasons for the lack of visual artistic expression, OR that they don't understand its very restrictive version of typography (lack of inline markup like emphasis and strong, lack of inline links, etc.). *Those* are the reasons why some people don't get the protocol, and some of them are protocol limitations, mostly. Which is fine. They don't have to get it, although some of this is the fault of Gemini users who misunderstand Gemini's own purpose and capabilities, lmao.
💎 pista · 2025-05-25 at 04:05:
I do really wish we had either italics or underline. The lack of those makes writing that includes attributions or foreign words a lot uglier than it needs to be.
🚀 hum0r · 2025-05-25 at 16:09:
Another topic to consider: If someone uses Gemini to release software or some other kind of work they feel they should be compensated for; does that seemingly go against the Gemini ethos? At what point does rewarding an individual's work turn into corporatization? When they found an LLC?
🚀 stack · 2025-05-25 at 18:07:
I think we object to being taken advantage of by corporations in the Web space (such as private information collected and traded without our consent). Doing useful work and perhaps getting paid for it by those who enjoy the benefits is hard to object to!
Corporate personhood is a whole other question, and is entirely off topic, don't you think?
🚀 clarahd · 2025-05-30 at 17:00:
I think this post suggests a priority app for the Gemini protocol - what to use instead of Google Maps Business Reviews if they will know everything about your web activity, and then control what answers you get by redirecting only to themselves and large corporate partners.
— bbs.geminispace.org/u/Sophira/29053
Perspective of someone new to the space (most of which has already been said), 1. exclusive content, bring people back to the joy of the written word. 2. clients for phones (saying this as someone who doesn't have a browser on their phone, but its how most people use the internet and there is one ios app which is pretty rough)
🚀 stack · 2025-05-30 at 20:03:
Writing on my very old phone with Lagrange.
Anything written on Gemini is easily proxied to the web or any other protocol.
💎 pista · 2025-05-30 at 21:28:
If you aren't using Lagrange for iOS you're doing it wrong.
Having to compile from source isnt very available, though i will do it, the majority wont. Proxy is similar, random reader on the street will be put off. It needs to be a few clicks to be mainstream. And you then can have a higher reader to writter ratio.
edit. ok figured out its on testflight and have it working on tablet, it is delightful but even that was a few more clicks than your avg bystander would go through.
Original Post
What could a protocol-native cult hit look like? — Is it likely that Gemini will soon see a cult hit that leverages the protocol's strengths while embracing its limitations? What do you think that such a project could look like?