Comment by 👻 darkghost
Re: "Small rant: I do not understand why some people on the Web…"
Jan 27 · 3 months ago
13 Later Comments ↓
i feel like this is a thing people get hung up on with anything computer-related.. linux is exclusionary, gemini is exclusionary.. people expect a computer to just be able to do anything for them instantly without any learning on their part, to the point where if something is outside their abilities, it's the software's fault
not everything is made for everyone.. there's probably a nuanced conversation to be had on what an acceptable barrier to entry is, and certainly i think that this place should be as accessible as possible to very many people. but "i should be able to fully interact with this space without doing 5 minutes of research" is not a serious opinion \
you can literally browse the entirety of geminispace through a proxy without downloading any software. you can interact any post with any of dozens of clients that you can download to any computer with enough horsepower for modern encryption (which is a superset of all computers capable of modern web browsing).. you can make your own gemlog certainly easier than you can write HTML, and half the damn capsules on here are providing free shell access for you to host one from
it's just people getting mad that they don't already know something and writing off people who took the time to learn it as out to get them. i don't understand it, i know not everyone wants to be a computer wizard about everything. but downloading a browser and clicking some links is not exactly hacking the planet
I've read a few of these arguments, and have chosen to sort the totality of them into the following arbirtary categories:
- Because the Web can do 'everything', it is always the ideal platform and there is no need for anything else
- Because 'everyone' uses the Web, using something else borders on antisocial
- Markup text is not utilitarian; it is somehow nostalgic or backwards-looking
- An explicitly plaintext protocol should support rendering tables and diagrams; a MIME/CSV download is simply not good enough
- Being a pedant about alt-text handling
- Just doesn't like seeing people do different things
Because infinity contains everything, both hardware and software will tend toward infinite size, along with data and metadata -- economic conditions permitting.
You can choose to not participate in that.
Not participating is hard and generally not profitable (expanding hardware, software, data and metadata is pretty much _the economy_ today.
But it is possible.
To the OP's post: I like the metaphors, well done. I, too, do not understand. Whether you like the book or not, I think of this place like Galt's Gulch in Atlas Shrugged, or The Shire.
Let's also not fool ourselves that the AI machine isn't absorbing, indexing, and analyzing the data on Gemini, to include possible personality profiles on BBS and wherever else you may use the same handle. We're easy to access by them too.
But, maybe we're just Hobbits, being missed by the watchful eye of sauron.
I mainly like the Gemini-web because it's chill, quiet and there's no petty internet shenanigans too. And I can post my art easily on the bbs too, I just need to resize and compress images. (I'll also use the compressed images I post on here to my mirror for my Gemini capsule.)
@JimmyLee absolutely, i know people who aren't good with computers, afraid of whatever they call 'linux' and don't have tpm chips, new hw or just reluctant to update their windowses.
github and many sites does not open for them with their outdated browsers.
they were blaming github, that github does it deliberately.
i tried to explain that 'deliberately' for them doesn't mean exactly 'to harm' but this in how commercial internet operates. they need to add features, 'deliver', as project managers say. show presentations, get higher in their carrer, etc. they don't need to think of someone with an old browser. someone who does not participate the commercial rat race.
non-commercial http related internet (hard to find, since free hosting websites are also commercial, use trackers, and show ads) is not bad! though it is http but many neocities or tilde sites feel much closer to gemini and are nice to explore.
i think people don't use and don't know about those http places as well. for them basically there is no difference, if it is gemini capsule or a personal website made with love.
they will never encounter it.
what gate keeps them? will default search engine ever find that website as search result? will ai link them to it? probably no, ai will not know about it because only commercial servers can take load of aggressive ai scrapers. others protect themselves with tech like anubis.
i like pascal, freepascal wiki is under anubis protection because their infra can't handle ai scrapers.
result: ai will not be ablle to help with pascal as well as with other languages.
i use maemo-leste mobile linux and i edited wiki articles on their wiki. it is also protected by anubis because aggressive scrapers. so ai won't help much with mobile linux.
commercial internet operates in a way it excludes not commercial data.
@jsreed5, i don't think gemini space is a farm, with all respect to farms. it is not a single entity, it is a town, at least, where lots of things are happening, capsules link to other capsules, people open and close places, move from one place to another.
it is a town people who got tired of how the usual cities operate, decided to move to. they need a bigger stronger car, that burns lots of petrol to navigate that mainstream internet city: browser that eats lots of memory, anti viruses, etc.
there are no roads for walking or bicycles in that big city. you need a big car, and there are only engines produced for those cars: chrome, gecko and webkit, others are out of business.
Gemini *itself* - as in the protocol - is not exclusionary, no. But many people here would rather not open the floodgates to the general populace, for many reasons. As such, the *people* are exclusionary.
(Note that I'm not commenting on whether this exclusionary behaviour is good or bad. It's a multi-faceted discussion with reasonable points to consider on all sides, and I don't have the energy for that right now.)
non commercial http world also can be accessed via small browsers like netsurf, dillo or links.
the problem with http world is not http itself, i can implement http protocol, i tried and did it, it is the html standard driven by big corporations that pursue more and more money, and that standard is so complex that to implement that standard you need many many man hours.
opera was a company that had own engine: presto. they realized they can't do it and closed the project.
sold opera brand to china.
now they do vivaldi browser, but by using chrome engine.
microsoft decided they are rich, they can afford creating their browser and being in control, impact the web as a browser producer. they invested in edge. they realized no money can make them competitive. they closed the project and edge uses chrome engine.
how is that space accessible?
these web browsers are heavy and slow on pretty modern hardware. but gemini browsers can be used on nokia n900 with modern linux. because linux is more or less scalable, u can build a small system and lightweight ui.
so gemini is like another town. it exists. it is walkable. but noone knows about it. because they live lives that don't make it possible to know there are other cities.
gemini is not on bill boards because why would it be? it is not a commercial organization that needs to invest in advertisement to increase earnings.
and when they learn about gemini, they don't want to move. they may think it i attractive but they are too engaged in their commercial lives with commercial messengers etc.
just like people from usa may visit europe but rarely will consider moving to a walkable city and give up big cars.
But many people here would rather not open the floodgates to the general populace, for many reasons. As such, the *people* are exclusionary.
@Sophira, how the flood of people may make me uncomfortable?
if there are more gemini capsules to explore with gemini browsers, more discussions, more opportunities to get support about certain topics on gemini forums, richer space, but accessible with lightweight browsers, why would i be against it? i would only be glad to have more people who use gemini.
and i do try to bring my friends to it. many just don't comprehend it.
i install them gemini browser and they forget about it. they have mastodon and they forget what is that.
👻 darkghost · Jan 28 at 13:38:
Check endless September from the usenet days. An influx of people tends to change the character of a community. But the thing I fear more is big money interests looking for a way to profit.
it is possible that if suddenly 1000 newcomers appear and discover this bbs, it will change its vibe.
but they won't change what someone writes or publishes in their capsule, i think.
there might appear more capsules that are of no interest to you or to me, but it is okay. (:
and then we'll maybe move to a new gated bbs, which is also fine.
the bbs will be gated but not whole gemini space. i believe gemini space will benefit from more people.
👻 darkghost · Jan 28 at 15:52:
Agree that nothing will change what people publish to their capsules.
I read an article a while back which pointed out that a small online community keeps its original character throughout small expansions, but gets overwhelmed when new users don't get to interact with old users long enough to understand the nature of the community. At that point, any questions and guidance requested from newbies get answered by other newbies, and chaos ensues.
I've been accused of gate-keeping for saying this, but I would like for Gemini to grow organically, with new members joining because they like the feel of the community -- not because some post went viral and a million new users flood in.
When a newb here comes in and starts going on about "How do we achieve mass adoption", I try to dissuade them from thinking along these lines.
@norayr re: indexing smolweb sites: bing has apparently implemented some kind of blacklist targeting neocities that just won't index that domain at all. instead search results bring up phishing scams, which looks pretty bad on neocities
blog post from neocities on the matter: http://blog.neocities.org/blog/2026/01/27/bing-block
Original Post
Small rant: I do not understand why some people on the Web still claim that Geminispace is exclusionary. To me, exclusion implies intent: the deliberate implementation of some mechanism that is specifically designed to make it harder for people to be included. Gated neighborhoods are exclusionary. Secret clubs are exclusionary. Invite-only forums are exclusionary. Gemini is not exclusionary--it's just a different place than HTTPS. If the Web is a bustling downtown city center full of...